Monetary results of the new NSFW policies + new billing regime

The results are not promising to say the least.

Quite literally the entire past year my monthly take had been consistent, varying about a $150 range over the entire span.

The past 2 months show a 15% drop. That is more than $500/month less. I’ll live, but it’s worthy of me raising a complaint, and I know I am not the only one.

It feels like you guys spent a dollar to save a few pennies, and we’re the ones footing the bill.

As my output and activity have not changed, I blame the NSFW policies which took down nearly all of my preview images (even though I censored every single one) and the new billing arrangement.

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I’ve always been unsure of Patreon’s policies - what are the exact rules about NSFW content right now? Who decides what’s NSFW and what isn’t? How sure are we that the current rules won’t get changed on us?

@jbernal Forgive my ignorance, I actually feel like I’ve been under a rock, but could you link me to something that explains what you’re talking about. I’ve a feeling I’ve missed something important.

Maybe Trust & Safety can clue us in.

From what I understand, no implied nudity (the definition of which is vague but, basically, cannot imply that the subject is nude) so you can’t have classy nudes even if the fun bits are hidden by clever placement or censor bars or anything. Cropping those parts out of the image, I have been told, should be OK (if it’s even possible).

So, no censored nudes, no implied nudes, no nudes. No fun allowed.

The dumbest part is that the true definition of “implied nude” can include that which you see in a shampoo commercial, where someone is in the shower with only their head and shoulders visible. Or a silhouette that is clearly unclothed.

What I’ve been doing is adding a bikini layer to my art where it’s possible and hiding the rest. There are other non-puritanical art sites like hentaifoundry and furaffinity where you can show full preview images and link back to your Patreon, so make use of those.

These are weird times. PayPal used to allow everything, then they tightened up their stance on adult stuff to the point where nothing was allowed, not even tangible sales of toys/videos/etc. Then they relaxed it on tangibles but retained their policy on intangibles. Then they relaxed the rules on adult art commissions and opened the door to full on internet pornography via a partnership with Epoch (which still exists), meanwhile strangling all the rest of us with these byzantine restrictions. So at the moment, their policies are extremely two-faced and irrational.

Buy porn with PayPal from an Epoch partner, totally OK.
Show a nipple on Patreon, banned.

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There is a library of stuff about the NSFW crackdown here, just run a cursory search or pan down the subject lines.

Re the billing change, that has an effect on everyone. Patreon recently moved their billing operations to the UK and the result is that many pledge charges are being declined by banks due to fraud alerts.

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Thanks a mill.

I may be wrong but the move of NSFW processing to the UK may not have been a choice as much as it was forced upon themto be able to continue taking payments for NSFW things.

The e-mail and blog post implied to me that the choice they had was uprooting part of their billing and moving it to the UK with all the problems that causes or just cutting NSFW entirely.

If that is true then perhaps they should state it as such. The official explanation is that it was done to give us a better deal and/or a longer term strategy for the business. Which, if true, has not resulted in a better deal.

Hi there, I’d be happy to talk to the points raised in this thread.

  1. this blog goes into detail about the payment changes we’ve made recently and why we had to make them.
  2. the blog also explains that we while we’ve always reviewed Patreon pages, we did increase the coverage and speed of our proactive reviews recently, which I know some creators felt like it was a change in policy or enforcement.
  3. here are our guidelines, which goes into detail about our NSFW rules.

The NSFW rules posted still do not mention anything about the implied nudity restriction and how it is defined and upheld. You guys should probably update that. I’m not being facetious, I’m being genuine. We need line-in-the-sand definitions so as to avoid being arbitrarily shut down.

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I imagine the reluctance in defining the rules isn’t because of tonality concerns, but it’s most probably also a business mandate. Patreon’s benefactors don’t want NSFW to be so closely-associated, period. Drawing line in the sand would incur the detailed mentions and breaking down of rules of legal distribution of a material that’s strictly, still, defined to be unsellable or highly taxable, fragile content in most countries.

I think getting any definitions might be a long shot. They have always relied on us picking up the small hints and draw the full picture ourselves. Which was, fine, but the suspensions seem to be getting somewhat inconsistent and stingier as Patreon chugs along. We don’t know when we’re going to have a bad month, despite the precautions we take. Without much of a persecution and going straight to the “suspension” route as well. It just makes me believe that all the Patreon’s corporate benefactors are simply catching wind of our use of shortcuts, backdoors, loopholes, whatever you name it - and pester Patreon about it.

TL;DR there is just no clear-cut rules, it can be subject to change at any given moment and perhaps we shouldn’t feel that comfortable with any of this. First it was IRL porn only that got the hacksaw, then it was the public posting of the drawn NSFW material that became a no-no. Now we don’t know what the next step is - which we seem to have reached because I’ve been hearing a couple reports from people who got suspended despite anything else. We just gotta pray that Patreon doesn’t alter the deal even further.

For everyone saying these are new changes, they aren’t; Patreon has been against NSFW stuff on the front page since at least 2015.

As for people going on about stuff on front pages ruining their campaign, honestly, Patreon’s front pages and Patreon itself should NEVER be how you advertise your NSFW campaigns.

People should be coming from OFF SITE to your Patreon page, especially since people can’t search for your Patreon page in the on-site search, which means the only way they would find out about you would be from word of mouth or your own advertising on other sites.

Post your art/game/pictures on forums, discord, your own website, message boards, you name it, get your name out there and your content out there, and then have all of it point back to Patreon. Patreon should be where you get the funds for your game and keep backers updated, it shouldn’t be what attracts someone to pledge or not; by the time someone visits your page, they should already want to pledge.

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What I’m trying to say is that they will shut you down and tell you why after the fact, but why not just put all that verbage somewhere we can all find it, so we know what to look out for? We keep getting the same link to the same vague language that explains nothing.

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That’s exactly what I’m referring to, though. The reason why there is no clear-cut answer to our questions is that (besides the fact that they don’t wanna bother adjusting it time and time again whenever it gets updated) it’s a safer strategy for them to NOT give people clear-cut definitions for NSFW content, which would make this site look even more NSFW-centric; and that’s simply the kind of site their benefactors don’t want to be associated with.

I’ll retort to that and say the adult guidelines were updated to be more inclusive of nitty-gritty within this year (right around when the fee issues happened). Before that, the guidelines basically just said “don’t go TOO crazy, guys”.

Aside from that, yeah, I agree. Patreon blog is simply not designed to be the storefront, it’s supposed to be the depot that you store your content in. The storefront is your Tumblr, Twitter and your imageboard tags.

The only problem with that generalization is that only around 60% of my Patrons seem to care much for Discord - and a further 60% of those patrons actually are in my Discord channel. If I choose to distribute my pledge reward content only from Discord, that would push two thirds of my patrons away. So for distributing patron pledges, Patreon blog has the best reach. Which isn’t much of a problem now, but will definitely become a problem if/when Patreon decides patron-locked NSFW content is a bad doodoo thing to do. I think that’s exactly the fear that’s instilled in the creators who just ask for clear-cut definitions (or at least a sign of good-will and welcoming trust): The “Guideline Creep”, as it were. The issue isn’t so much so “how it is right now”, but rather “how it can be in the immediate future”.

Also, I’ll never be sure HOW much “sauce” is too much for my tier icons and banner, which are designed to be public. Honestly I don’t want to look too prudish with the design and aesthetics of my campaign as well, because at that point I feel like these vague guidelines interfere with the identity of my campaign.

The only thing changed on the Patreon adult guidelines in the last 3 years was “no bestiality or loli, and incest/non-consensual stuff is a case by case basis”. Everything else was there since 2015, I’ve got emails saying as such and screencaps as well :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m not saying to distribute your pledge reward content only in Discord, you should be posting it on the activity feed; however, you should be making your activity feed posts private, per Patreon policy, and posting all your activity feed posts publicly on other websites besides Patreon.

It may seem counterintuitive, but posting your stuff publicly on other websites and not leaving much that’s exclusive on your Patreon page itself besides certain rewards (again, privated) can actually bring in more people; we do that, and we’re currently bringing in nearly $15,000 a month.

We have a fairly active Discord where we post rewards at too, even to people who aren’t currently backing us but just backed us in the past, etc.

I don’t think they’ll ever decide that Patron-locked and privated NSFW content would be bad, that would be very surprising if so.

The problem with clear-cut definitions is the same problem that exists with any business, and why you won’t ever see any business giving a clear-cut definition if they’re worth their salt when it comes to things like this topic; people themselves are the problem.

What I mean by this is that if I were Patreon staff, and I said, for example, “For implied nudity, you cannot have the person completely nude and with black bars over their chest, they need to be wearing some sort of clothing.”

This will inevitably result in a host of cases where people have women wearing tiny tiny tiny microbikinis that are 1 pixel wide, showing significant areola or even if they don’t, still being far little clothing. Then, when they get hit, they will complain to Patreon saying “but you said in the rules that implied nudity was bad only if it was black bars and if we had clothing it was okay!”

So then Patreon will have to spend even more time further outlining the rules, making them ultra-hyper specific, something that’s like 10 pages long and no one will ever read, to abide by and account for all possible loopholes in the system.

This then punishes the creators because, whoops, your bikini on your character is too flesh colored, or whoops, it’s showing approximately 2% more skin that it should be on a bikini to skin ratio, or whoops, her outfit is showing too much of her pelvic area, etc. and it becomes a complete madhouse for both Patreon to regulate and the creators to sift through tons of pages of information on, as well as forcing them to take action on the slightest infraction on the rules, making things even harsher on all involved.

This is why companies don’t establish hard, clear-cut guidelines, because anytime a business does this, to summarize, those three things happen in order;

  1. creators exploit/loophole the specific wording
  2. business makes insanely detailed, unescapable guidelines
  3. business now has to spend enormous amount of time policing for this and creators are hit for the tiniest infractions possible unless they’ve memorized the extensive rules

Having things somewhat vague is a win for everyone, because then it allows businesses to allow for edge cases to get by, it allows for flexibility in the rules, and it allows the business to take action when someone is clearly trying to loophole or exploit the system, without punishing everyone else as a result.

As a creator, my best suggestion is to err on being as safe as possible with the guidelines; you honestly don’t need any NSFW art on your front page (or even any NSFW dialogue) to get people to pledge, if you’ve done your job right on the outside of Patreon.

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What I’ve been trying to describe this whole time, you have described a lot more eloquently. The user finagling of clear-cut guidelines, pushing the platform holder to not elaborate so people don’t find loopholes to pressure the system even further.

Again, you kind of hopscotch around the picture I’ve been also failing to draw: What IS NSFW? I ask this because plenty of other sites would consider deep cleavages, lingerie or even suggestive expressions unfit to publicly display on their site, due to demography concerns and what have you. Would that still be okay for the image they want to sustain for Patreon when it comes to a member of the non-adult audience stumbles upon one of our blogs?

I know the guidelines so far claim that it SHOULD NOT be an offense… for now. That’s the key here. There really has been more inherent changes to the guidelines that you claim, and those changes occurred in a really haphazard manner. Not only that but those changes also brought in immediate and unexpected suspensions to people’s campaigns. I would still say the scare is warranted. I personally am scared not because I wanna show more nipples in broad public, but I wanna sew in some sort of a sexually clear sample of the aesthetics I’m going to deliver, within the interwovings of my campaign. I’m just not sure where to draw the line here.

I also want to ask @mindy: Can I manually request a guideline check from the staff, regarding if my banner and tier images are suitable (as they HAVE to be public) without necessarily being suspended on the spot - or at a date that would be entirely random and unexpected to me for that matter? It would simply be devastating to me to wake up to a surprise like that (and not knowing when I can be back on my feet) and I’d like to show I’m inclined to play ball and adjust my content in a quickly manner that wouldn’t warrant for a haphazard suspension. The vagueness of defined sexual imagery does end up creating some paranoia and I wish the staff approached this with more understanding and less… with the cold reminding of what we know to be already established.

I couldn’t possibly disagree more. Arbitrary enforcement of vague rules with no warning has made me have to reset everything about every 5 years. Not conducive to maintainance of peace and sanity with any form of business.

@cuisine yep! the team is happy to help answer any questions you might have or review your account proactively. Email guidelines@patreon.com with your request or questions and someone will be in touch :slight_smile:

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