We want and need your input on billing

Hello, I’ve been a creator here on Patreon for several years now and wanted to give more input on the platform.

Please be more direct with potential changes BEFORE announcing it to the public at large. This current topic feels the same as the drama a few years back: where there was massive backlash because most creators here did not ask for the change at all.

Please DO NOT implement “anniversary billing”, as it would be terribly unorganized for creators and patrons. Please address actual concerns your users have asked about. Website improvements and better UI. Leave billing as it is. Thank you.

9 Likes

This year we’re moving towards anniversary billing, where patrons’ renewal date each month will be the same date they joined.

YES. SO MUCH YES. At least as something that creators can opt into.

I’ve had so many new patrons get confused about Patreon’s billing, thinking that a pledge is the same thing as a charge. Or get frustrated when they have to wait until the first. Only people who have used Patreon for a while already understand its billing model – no other site does this kind of billing that I know of. So all my new patrons expect it to work like netflix or amazon or whatever. I warn people in bold red text at the top of my page, but people still don’t understand. This question pops up all the time for me, more than any other question regarding my project by far.

What I’d like to do is have billing be up front (with a fast API data update to allow instant reward unlocks!), and then charged at the one month anniversary. Then it’d work the same as the other subscription services my customers already use on other websites. It should also explain on the purchase page when the charges will happen.

I understand for some other creators, they may want to batch all the charges on the first of the month since grandfathered accounts get to pool fees together – but my suspicion is since fewer and fewer creators have access to that, it’s going to eventually become less and less of a savings. Personally, it’s worth it to me to pay the standard credit card processing fees individually/non-pooled, just to make the customer experience way better. But making it as an option seems fair.

3 Likes

PLEASE, do not force anniversary billing.

It will cause such a big hassle for so many people. Make it an option.

There’s plenty of us living hand to mouth, with the monthly sum from Patreon covering bills and food. Having that suddenly sprinkle in at random times across a month will cause so much pain for so many creators. This is on top of the massive burden it will put on those who usually send things out monthly, to suddenly needing to micro-manage each individual constantly every month.

Forcing it will be very destructive.

14 Likes

I think anniversary billing could be a really good replacement for the non-charge-up-front creators since when I first joined, that’s actually how I thought Patreon would work. However, I quickly changed to charge up front when I noticed patrons pledging and deleting before the end of the month to get that month’s content without paying for it. And now, I definitely prefer charge up front as it gives clear division lines to measure growth and deadlines to work within as well as making it easier to know who has and hasn’t paid each month.

If patrons assuming they’ve been double-billed is really the impetus for this, adding a box to the sign up/check out page that clearly explains that they are paying for this month and will be billed again for next month on the first where they can either accept or defer payment (and access) seems like a much easier solution. It would also empower patrons to make the choice that’s right for them while keeping creators happy. I suspect that most of those support tickets aren’t so much angry about accidentally buying two months of content so close together, but about the lack of communication about it. Given the option, I suspect many would accept the “double payment” rather than defer.

8 Likes

I’m gonna explain my thought process real quick. Honestly I under how this “anniversary billing” would freak many Patreon creators out. When I initially got the survey (a few weeks ago?) in my email I was pretty skeptical but for MY use case it makes so much sense. I posted in the Discord server that it would make my users lives so much easier. Many pledge on the last week of the month and complain when they are billed again on the first of the next month. Since I use Patreon for a monthly subscription for a digital product… it makes so much sense to be charged on the same day each month.

So I’ve explained it works great for me but for some people it wouldn’t. Youtube creators may feel the current system works for their schedule much better. So I think (and I would hope others have also thought of this) that this should be an option we could enable or disable just like annual billing and the percent off is a feature you have to enable. Just my two cents.

2 Likes

My feedback would be not to do Anniversary Billing; but I don’t mind if it’s added as an option for others to use. Not every creator is the same, and we all don’t use the same kind of billing model, structure, system, rewards, etc… so I’m not opposed to having it as an option but am entirely against forcing creators into that type of system.

If you asked me what I would want… I’d prefer to only allow supporters to sign up within the first 14 days of the month, and then after that, if they end up supporting on, or past, day 15 they’re actually pre-signing up for next month on the 1st. Email reminders could be sent out in case they want to cancel it. I know that option has potential problems; like not getting access immediately. Again, that wouldn’t work for everyone; but it’s an option I would like to have. For me, I would offer these two options to my supporters:

  1. Charged now for immediate access to items; but force an “I understand” box to be checked that they understand they’ll be charged on the 1st of the month.

  2. The system I mentioned above.

I think Patreon’s biggest problem they need to understand is that providing options is better than forcing your entire clientele into something.

13 Likes

This is wholey dependent on what people offer and how. I do not use charge up front and this feature would screw my entire business model over. If I wasn’t offering custom content and merch, Anniversary billing would be fine, but I do, and waiting for each payment to trickle in during the month before I can give out rewards increases my workload a ton and is really no different than me just offering public commissions which is one of the big reasons I moved to patreon, to get away from that.

4 Likes

You have 81 Patrons at the moment. I swear to you that this will be over as soon as you hit the 100. People have to read before they pay for things. And you can arrange your rewards way better around it.

I have written a Twitter thread to explain to others , both creators and patrons alike, why this is a bad idea, but I’ll summarise here, likely repeating a lot of the points others have made in this thread:

  • Many creators plan rewards based on patrons being billed at the beginning of each month. For many, this allows them to quickly vet, identify, and withhold rewards for those who have not paid for that month yet as a safety precaution.

  • One of the things I do like to do out of courtesy is inform patrons if their payment method is declined. This is only really tenable with all the payments coming in at once, and so it’s easy to pick out declined payments and message.

  • Distributing payments all across a month would make accounting difficult, not just for creators who work with a single lump sum but also for patrons as well. A dozen individual pledges get consolidated into a single amount billed at the beginning of the month rather than staying seperate. If the payment method has a fee applied, staggered billing means that less money will be given to creators, and in turn discourage many patrons from bothering supporting at all (remember December 2017?)

  • Somewhat related to the last point, but it complicates being both a patron and a creator. Monthly billing means that my support to other creators is taken cleanly as a cut out of my income. With staggered “anniversary” billing it becomes difficult to keep track. If I withdraw my money one day early, does that mean Patreon just charges my card or declines my patronage? Is that just another bit of complication I have to deal with?

  • Many creators base their monthly output goals on their pledge amount for the month. This is especially important as many creators do not make a living via Patreon, and so must balance Patreon obligations with, say, any day jobs they may have. Spreading pledges across multiple days in a month makes it much harder to track patronage and lends itself to being far more unpredictable.


If I’m honest, though, the bigger problem is that the issue that anniversary billing is trying to solve not even an issue to begin with, because “double billing” is exactly what the system is designed to do.

As far as I understand it, the issue stems from a patron pledging to an upfront-payment patron. They pledge on, say, the 29th; then only a couple of days later they get charged again.

However, as I remember it, the upfront payment system was designed to do two things:

  1. Allow patrons to properly compensate creators for an entire backlog of posts
  2. Prevent patrons from sampling patron-only content by pledging and then pulling their pledge before the monthly amount is due.

I’m not making these up, by the way, this is what Patreon says on its own FAQ page about upfront billing, explicitly stating that upfront billing prevents patrons from sampling patron-only content and also says it’s “great” for people who already have a large catalogue of past content.

So it’s not “double-billing”, because the first charge is explicitly supposed to be the entry cost to access the back catalogue of content. The later charge is a standard monthly fee for the new content. The two charges are not for the same thing; the first charge is supposed to be an initial admission fee on top of the next month’s bill.

What baffles me so much is how Patreon manages to not understand a system it designed itself. It’s not “double-billing”, it’s an admission fee; why the hell do you not understand your own product? And if you do understand it, why have you been so ineffectual at explaining this to any patron (who are your users, by the way) that a seemingly huge chunk of think they’re being charged twice?

If anything, the problem is that Patreon does not seem to take any effort in communicating absolutely anything to anyone. Not just in updates, this one and others in the past that have adversely affected smaller creators, but even in basic site functionality. “The upfront charge is for access to the back catalogue.” What is so difficult to communicate to people who use your website?

Furthermore the fact that I even have to write this out amidst the outcry is indicative of a lack of willingness to communicate at all to us. Creators continue to bear the bulk of the burden of explaining how the damned site works to our fans and every single change that’s proposed that upends everything to place it on its side. We have to continually explain what upfront charging is and why we’re implementing it, or what a “benefit” is, or how to add their postal address to their damn account for receiving rewards.

It is honestly absurd how much Patreon expects us to have to explain to our patrons how to work the thing; sure, we are the creators, but this is YOUR website, and they ARE ALSO your users. Users cancelling their pledges because they think they’re being double billed is telling to me that Patreon is just utterly incompetent or unwilling to understand their own product, let alone communicate to their own users on what the hell is even going on. The fact that this isn’t even the first time Patreon has poorly communicated any change to its creators and relying on creators yelling at you to tell you what a bad idea it is unacceptable and unprofessional. I sometimes have no idea what the hell I pay Patreon’s fees for.

Implement features, solve real problems, allow us more flexibility and patronage and unlocking content, hire someone who can fix the atrocious website user interface, communicate with both your creators and patrons better, cut the crap, and do better.

45 Likes

I have two very different patreon pages and anniversary billing would be devastating to both.

Anniversary billing would likely be really good for folks that give out one to two things a month and not custom content. If it’s an OPTION, I’m OK with that! Some folks will find it useful and that’s cool. (I doubt it will be an option since one of the complaints brought up in the AMA was that the payment system was confusing because some people pay upfront and some don’t, so I doubt it’ll be just an option as that goes against what you folks claim to want to fix.)

For many folks that offer custom content (Or just simply don’t like to be drip fed our paycheck) it’s crushing. I offer custom art, mailed merch (that patrons help me to fund the orders of) and knowing exactly how much I make at the beginning of the month ensures I know what I’ve got and can fill the gaps as needed and can go ahead with custom and poll content right away to get the ball rolling. Being trickle fed the income and having to wait for folks to process to confirm they are eligible for their reward, would make custom and merch content entirely unrealistic and makes the reasons i joined patreon to begin with, entirely moot. I would have to wait for at least a month before I could do anything and one big issue there is folks feeling like they aren’t getting what they paid for within a time frame they feel is reasonable. Refunds would be asked left right and center and i’d be back to just taking commission content constantly to make ends meet or jumping ship to another platform.

My side project zine patreon page is per creation (but still processes on the 1st), which you folks have pretty much left in the dust and seem to be actively phasing out and so anniversary billing makes no sense there and seem like the “per creation killer” if implemented since per creation wouldn’t function under that.

There have been so many good suggestions to test to fix the double billing (which is one of the reasons i don’t use pay upfront so I get it’s a problem) that should be tested first. Easier, less time consuming and less expensive (person hours) to look into that completely redoing the whole system (which really just needs a bigger warning/clarification on patreons end. The text that says when you will be billed again is pitiful and ineffective.) There are other sites that also offer payment options like pro rated, monthly (anniversary), monthly (beginning or end of), a historic content fee option, etc! I do not understand why this is so hard when other folks actively offer these options.

12 Likes

This is a great write up and 100% agreed with all of it. Thank you Kavaeric. :pray:

1 Like

As someone who is’nt able bodied and relies on Patreon, this is’nt a good idea

Please just keep it to the 1st of the month, there’s nothing wrong with that.

Unless you can give the Creator maybe gets to choose the date when payments are processed instead to compromise.

but again everything including sticker clubs or physical item clubs will have more chances to slip up because if they have 20-1000+ patreons to fulfill orders getting them all shipped out and making sure their payments are not bounced back would be difficult

4 Likes

I personally wouldn’t be TOO drastically hurt by anniversary billing, provided that payments can still be batched. If they cannot be batched, then it becomes catastrophic for me, as I rely heavily on small pledges. It would make it harder to deliver some of my rewards and benefits, having also used SubscribeStar and testing out anniversary billing there.

I do have patrons who pledge to multiple pages who have voiced how they would be annoyed at getting multiple invoices a month instead of one, some of which would leave for other sites or sources to support me.

If anniversary payments were opt-in and optional, that would avoid most the pitfalls. Creators who could benefit from it could choose to use it, while creators who would be hurt by it simply wouldn’t implement it. The important thing is just that Patrons know what they’re pledging to and when they’ll be charged again.

3 Likes

This is 100% true on both counts. And also, as a person who charges upfront and fulfills monthly rewards, I personally still fulfill January’s rewards to patrons who pledge on January 31, and then they get February’s rewards too if they stick around till February 1. (I fulfill all rewards at the end of the month.) It’s not a double charge, they get everything they paid for, and I haven’t gotten any complaints or questions from my patrons ever since Patreon started informing late-pledging patrons that they will be charged again on the 1st. I also have my own FAQ for my specific Patreon that informs my patrons when they’re charged and when they get rewards.

I can only fulfill rewards as a batch, at the end of the month after everyone has been processed for the month. My job is to make comics, not to spend every day combing through spreadsheets and sending out emails, snail mail, and direct messages individually to hundreds of patrons in the least efficient manner possible. So that means, with anniversary billing, any patron who’s charged at the end of the month only gets 1-2 days (or less) to fix a declined pledge before I ship stuff out, while other patrons can sit around for 30 days before fixing their card. That’s really not fair to the late pledgers, but there’s no other practical way.

Anyway, I filled out the survey so I don’t have much else to say - except that, if this change really is in the “early stages of discovery,” I’m pretty concerned that patrons are already being told it’s happening - AND that they’re being given different information than creators. Honestly, creators should get copies of every email like this that’s sent to patrons so we know what’s being promised on our behalf. I didn’t get either email despite being both a creator and a patron; I had to learn about this on twitter.

14 Likes

Speaking purely as a patron, I would not want this change. I already support five separate people, and plan out my finances so I have enough in my Paypal by the end of the month, so as to not dip into my bank account to fund them. I would love to one day up that to several more creators. But if I have to manage every single payment, to make sure I always have enough in my account, it’ll be a mess. I’d have to drop my pledges. I already have seen many others on Twitter say the same.

One charge one time at the same time is simple, memorable, and manageable.

14 Likes

Thank you @Kavaeric, this is very well written.

I will note that there is at time of writing nothing about this in Updates , the official announcements mechanism here on this site. Instead, it’s in Patreon Feedback, where anyone can create posts.

2 Likes

Don’t mess with how payouts are done, instead you should make it so we can set a date so people can’t pledge until the next month rolls in. Not this stupid anniversary day thing. We all know you don’t deal with it, Jake Conte, but most of us live paycheck to paycheck each month.

1 Like

Please do not do anniversary billing. Just please don’t.

It will make it more difficult for Creators to get an accurate account of their monthly income on Patreon, and it will make it incredibly annoying for Patrons to fully know how much they are spending on Patreon.

It seems like this might be largely proposed as a possible solution to the “double charge” problem. This isn’t the right solution. Many people have proposed possible solutions on the Reddit AMA to that particular problem, and the vast, overwhelming majority of them have also said they do not want anniversary billing.

Please consider what we are saying.

8 Likes

This isn’t the first time an outcry has happened because of billing changes without consolidated discussions with your customers. Yes, creators are your customers; we’re not operating as a business to business intermediate.

I personally love the services offered by Patreon, but there is always some controversy going on about content, payments, the lack of updates on improved UI (and improvement doesn’t mean taking away features), and even synchronisation of supporters. Hell, and then there’s not even content leaking being addressed!

First fix things that are actually broken and only then maybe consider improving things that everyone is happy with and is not being questioned by the majority of your customers. There’s a reason why people are looking for alternatives. Not because it’s necessarily better, but because there are more stable options and creators don’t have time to deal with this kind of stuff.

9 Likes

Please please do not change the billing system. To do so could be catastrophic for creators who are already struggling during a pandemic.

  1. As a creator who ships monthly rewards, this would create much more work in tracking and maintaining my shipping schedule as I’d have to wait for each individual charge to go through. I need to be able to batch ship/ deliver these rewards in order to continue offering them at the price points I do.

  2. As a Patron, I’ll now be getting multiple emails with receipts, a nightmare for book keeping and maintaining my inbox which is already flooded daily. This would make me extremely reluctant to support multiple creators.

  3. Patrons are used to the current system, changing it would undoubtedly cause confusion and concerns about weather or not they can receive their rewards.

  4. Dealing with declines. Currently at the start of each month I evaluate which Patrons have declined payments and reach out to them individually to let them know (since they all claim Patreon doesn’t alert them when this happens) and offer solutions. The new system would require me to check on these throughout the month instead of conveniently batching it at the start.

Please… I am relying on Patreon more than ever since the pandemic has caused almost all my other income streams to dry up. Please don’t do this.

11 Likes