Product Improvements Coming Soon

Thanks for all this information, Mindy, but I would also like to add my concerns. Having the option to highlight one of our tiers won’t really help. I don’t want to highlight our higher tiers, but I don’t want them hidden either. I agree with the feedback that I’d really like to know what percentage of potential patrons actually click the link to see the rest of the tiers. I would guess that it’s well below 100%.

I’m not really that impressed by an increase of 9%. That is such a small amount that it could be due to chance. I echo some of the serious concerns that others are having about this change.

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If it’s done with A/B testing, then yes. That’s exactly what is being tested. All other possible parameters are irrelevant because the would effect both version the same way.

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Thanks for the insight. Since we have nothing to really go off of in regards to the testing, that’s what’s leading to a lot of our confusion. We were polled for feedback and then suddenly told this 9% number was more important, and the changes would roll out to everyone (before getting any responses to big concerns.) It’s a lot at once, and a lot of creator pages are going to suffer.

As @TypographyGuru mentioned, this was run as an A/B test, so the results are independent of other factors (i.e. seasonality). I want to iterate what Mindy has already mentioned: we’re not done with our improvements to the page, and as a matter of fact, we’re going to be testing a version next week that helps visitors discover the higher tiers more easily.

We are very excited about the future of the landing page, and incredibly motivated by the recent results. It did not feel right nor creator-first to hold back a design that on average made creators more money, and we also did speak with many patrons and fans to ensure the new layout was clearer. I understand it may feel like some of your feedback was ignored, and we hope to show you otherwise with future improvements. Two things in particular we’re focusing on near-term: we heard the feedback about white space, and have also heard feedback about the more expensive tiers not being easily discoverable. Here are some of the ideas the design team is exploring to address those two things.

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A/B testing should hopefully control for many factors, but it does not control for chance. When I took a stats class in grad school my professor told us that if you split the residents of Chicago into 2 groups based on the first letters of their last names, you will almost certainly find that one group earns more than the other group. Not for any good reason, but it’s highly unlikely that the groups would be exactly the same. Now you wouldn’t expect a huge difference between the groups, but I can imagine that you might find a 9% difference just due to chance. :slight_smile:

Still, glad to hear that you are still working on some tweaks; thanks!

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I’m curious where this took place. Was it outside of the forum and Discord?

Yes! Yes to this redesign (specifically, the one shown in this post, not the one getting the compaints)!

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The A/B test explanation by @TypographyGuru actually helped my concerns a lot. That does eliminate a lot of the “what ifs” myself and others were bringing up! So in that regard I’m at ease, and even more so when it comes to potential changes like the one you showed here (even used my Patreon, I’m so flattered!) because oh my goodness that makes SO much more sense and solves many problems!

In that example, would the “highlighted tier” thing that keeps being brought up essentially just be the default tier that is selected when someone comes to your Patreon page? Because that makes a whole lot of sense to me and is a lot more subtle than “HEY POTENTIAL PATRON, THIS IS THE ONE YOU SHOULD CHOOSE!” which is how I’ve been dreading it would be. And though my tier images are really simple, I love how that space could be used by the creators who are currently struggling with their tier images being crunched. That’s prime real estate and encourages creativity when designing your tiers. Also I’m assuming that no matter how much text is in the tier description, there’s no show more buttons involve? If that’s the case, this is definitely a 10/10 and now has me very excited! I also like that it doesn’t involve a ton of scrolling, being able to select the tiers in a button format like that seems really intuitive! This is very exciting!

I also really like the post grid! Seeing that there’s a lot of content, be it public, locked, etc is very good! I know the idea of a “featured post” was floated (and could still work as a big post atop the grid or something) but I really like being able to just show people that there’s a lot of stuff they’re going to get. I like it!

I like hearing that these changes and improvements may be tested next week! I didn’t imagine the timeline being that soon, I don’t think anyone did, and that’s probably why the pushback was so strong on this. Having a better understanding of the A/B testing also has me understanding why the move to the one with a 9% improvement was made so quickly. If there’s money being left on the table, making the move does make sense, though I also feel for the creators who are in a bad spot in regards to their tier images and such in the meantime. If a solution like this was a week away, I don’t know if pushing the change that fast was worth it, but then again, I’m just some dude. lol

Thank you for sharing this with us and being understanding. I’m excited for what is to come, in particular I can’t wait to see what happens when the landing page is settled and the team moves on to the patron experience, finding content, browsability, etc.

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I second this concern myself! I think the About section would be much more important for some campaigns than for others, and it is the non-patrons that we would most want to see it!! We actually have 2 campaigns and people sometimes confuse them so it is really vital to us that non-patrons see the About section right at the top, so we can make sure that people are actually at the correct campaign.

And ack! I just saw our page for the first time while not signed in. Not only is the About section down really low on the page, but it’s truncated! Some of the most important parts are not shown unless you click the Show More. Wow, that’s not good. Really not good.

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YES to the grid posts. That looks great.

The only problem I have with the tier toggle buttons is that a potential patron would have to click through every button to see the options. Being able to feature a tier to sit at the default selection would help, since it would highlight what should be the most appealing tier.

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I agree with this exactly! I love the grid posts, but I still want to eventually be able to choose the tier that is highlighted.

As for the rest, I actually think the new layout will help me. Most of my Patrons know who I am and what they’re coming for since they can really only find me through links from my promotions (I’m not searchable since I’m an 18+ creator), they just need to decide which tier they want.

I do like having an about section to cover the basics in case they need to know more, though.

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I always respect all the effort you put in creating better results for us - the creators. But after all the feedback and hiding the high level tiers is a real step backwards.

After reading all the feedback and the pain most of the creators found on the new layout - I can say, I totally agreed. A lot of my followers already asked me, if I do not offer higher tiers with other content and just these three any more…

Please find a solution very quickly - especially for the high tiers - as I cannot always post links in every post to additional content… Hopefully you will roll-out the new layout @ursula showed a few hours ago very quickly and I’m ready for a test…

Thank you @mindy and @ursula for all your effort and hopefully we find a solution better for all creators…

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if you guys had a better layout in the bag, why did you go ahead and roll out this “improvement” that nobody asked for? what was the rush?

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My reward tiers are that way too, it makes them all look the same at first glance, since I list the previous rewards on the higher tiers, so all the additional stuff is hidden under a “Show More”. :frowning:

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Just pitching in here. I think the new layout has a good idea, and it’s nice to see at least some feedback being incorporated, but I have a lot of the same concerns others do.

I honestly really like how the tiers themselves are displayed in the new layout. I’m dyslexic and have trouble processing writing, but it is a lot easier to take things in now that the tiers are aligned horizontally instead of vertically. I think this is a good change, if only in isolation

The most recent dev post about the potential new tier layout is a little better for at least showing all the options, but it still does two things that hinder the creator: it requires a click to show all the options, which many people won’t want to do, for one reason or another, and it removes control from how the creator displays their content. I think that’s a troublesome combination.

The tier descriptions being truncated if they’re too long is also really frustrating. My tiers have a tiny “hey, you’re cool for supporting me” blurb before I list rewards, but despite being short, it’s enough that the rewards are completely hidden below the “show more” link. The design makes me feel pressured to spit out rewards first, and anything personal second, but not only is that not how I want to run my page (I’m community-based and enjoy being personable), it also doesn’t even fix the issue. If I do that, the list of rewards itself will get cut off.

In the past, it was good practice to have fewer tiers with more rewards (and we were encouraged to list them out, as many of us do), and the old layout supported that. Maybe the page was tall, but at least everything we wanted on it, was on it. Now, if I want everything to be seen, the design encourages fewer tiers (so they all show) and a lot less information in them (so it doesn’t get cut off). It’s just really punishing.

I saw talk of letting us feature a specific tier, and while I don’t think that’d be a bad feature by any means, it’s not a solution. I would rather all the tiers just… show, somehow. Making them smaller to fit would work, or if word count is seriously an issue, then rather than truncating them after X amount of characters, I would almost prefer no text to show at all, just the name of the tier, the amount, and the image (if we have one). The “become a patron” button could be below that to expand all of them, or take us to straight to the patreon.com/join/creatorname page that the button does right now. That is admittedly pretty clunky functionality, but it would at least be more straightforward. A summary of information is a lot better than just some of the information.

Ignoring the tiers, this is a big concern for me right now:

The about section being truncated is incredibly frustrating, arguably more so than the tiers getting this treatment, and for it to be underneath my tiers is really damaging to my page. My work is particular, and I structured my page so that the first thing people saw was it, and me, and what kind of person I am. This is certainly not the case for everyone, but it was the case for me - this change removes my ability to inform potential patrons about my work before suggesting that they pay me for it. It makes me feel greedy.

In the same way that we can choose whether or not to show how many patrons we have, how much we earn, how our goals display, I feel like we should be able to choose what a potential patron sees first. I don’t doubt that the new layout could garner more patrons, but that is not exactly why I’m using this platform. I really wish the decision on what to prioritize wasn’t being made for me.

I do feel like this layout creates a lot of opportunities to organize everything else better. Why can’t the description be wider? Why can’t other useful information be to the right of it? Information being recent posts, the featured tags (which seem to be totally missing in the new layout) or perhaps something new: 1-5 images/videos of the creator’s choosing to show examples of what they make, or just a picture of them if they like. As an artist, it is surprisingly challenging to show examples of the work my patrons help me make on my actual Patreon page.

I know it is a work in progress and I’m sympathetic to the fact that you can’t please everyone, this just feels like an awkward stage to push changes at. When I first saw the layout, unfortunately, I thought it was a bug - the space below the tiers looks unfinished and is aggressively vertical, like when you load a mobile website in a desktop-sized window.

Despite all the complaints, I do thank you for your work on this so far. It’s obvious you have the right idea, to help creators, and I want to do my part to help you gus fine-tune things so you achieve that goal.

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It must be very hard to make a one-size-fits-all page design that works for everybody. I also imagine it’s a tough job to present the idea that short, punchy, benefit-first pages convert better to creators who have lost themselves in writing a thousand words of explanation and parentheticals and FAQs, as is so easy to write.

However, I really think this change was rushed into production in a way that deserves criticism. You should have taken your A/B testing results and used it as inspiration to develop a more comprehensive change to the page (and page editor), rather than just implementing it straight away.

I won’t repeat critiques about white space and the clumsy overuse of “Show more” links, though I share them with everyone. I would like to highlight a few smaller things that I think you ought to address with your next redesign:

Use your vertical space more judiciously!

I understand that users who don’t know what they want will often rebel against the breathing room they really need, but there are so many clumsy choices that do not seem intentional. Why does it take four and a half scrolls of an iPhone 8 to get through my tier list, a tier list that doesn’t even show what’s in each tier anymore?

I think it’s because you insist on centering too many elements: tier image, tier title, tier price and select button. You also include an eyecatching Includes Discord rewards bit that takes precedence over my actual benefits beyond the second line and is repeated over and over! There are so many ways you could resolve the problems with this sprawling design, but here’s a quick idea that doesn’t even put any elements beside each other:

tier_example

This preserves all the luxurious whitespace, avoids the truncation, and comes out 20% shorter simply by integrating “$3 per month” into the “Select” button. OK, so maybe a dollar value on the button converts poorly! But you could also put the image to the side of the tier name. You could put the price in small text below the button. You could remove support for custom images entirely. You could do so many things I could mock up here.

But instead you went with a small tweak to a design intended for a sidebar that had loads of vertical space to soak up and patched it over by hiding much of the critical benefit information with a fade and a "Show more” link that looks ugly. It seems unbelievable to me that this was the best way to do it. I’m guessing you just didn’t try that many variations of this now utterly critical part of the page design.

How about on the desktop?

about

What’s going on with the Twitch icon wrapping over like that? How did that make it to production? Did you consider that we might not need the "ABOUT <CREATOR NAME>" heading anymore, given the clear position of this section within the page? Why is “Share” and “Follow” there — do people use Share, did you test it, does it earn a place? Is “Follow” adequately explained? Should it be more proximate to the posts section, with a better descriptor like "Follow public posts”, or “Follow free posts”?

Open up the About section on desktop

The font size, thin grey border and narrow column width don’t make sense for the about section anymore. Why don’t you take a hint from sites like Medium and open it up a little wider? Here’s a quick mockup:

This just looks so much better to me, and it avoids the “did it load the mobile CSS by mistake” gut feeling I have with the page currently. Of course, please, massage the numbers to make the column width and line height just right, and establish a limit on the about section’s height. Maybe mine is too tall, but not by too much, I think.

Another idea that could work is to have a means for creators to put decorative images on the left and right voids, so you could ban images from the about section proper while keeping a (controlled) space for creators to put enticing bits of art.

Revamp the goals section

It’s just huge and clunky. I deleted it in the above mockup. Surely you could make it nicer — even reduce it to a starburst that says “92 patrons away from goal!” I can’t really be bothered to dream up ideas for it, but it seems like another clunky leftover from the three-column design that squanders vertical space and fatigues me as I scroll.

Provide time and guidance

If you’re gonna make changes like this that necessitate page redesigns, I think it’s important for you to provide a transition period (for all the poor people that thought it was OK to have 800px-tall tier images who got screwed by this change) and clear guidance for us as we convert our legacy designs to the new thing. Tell me my about section is too long! Tell me that I should make my benefit descriptions shorter! Do it in a blog and do it in an email and do it in the page editor!

If you make radical changes, you need to develop the page editor hand in hand with the page appearance to facilitate these tips, character counts, vertical space estimators, etc. I know it’s a lot of work, but if you did touch it…

Allow some (sensible) customisations

It’s apparent to me that you don’t want a wild west of Myspace\Livejournal\Tumblr style campaign pages, and while I think many here would prefer total customisability, I am one of the creators here who values consistency even if I sometimes have to fight with the system provided. Indeed, I hope that my Patreon fees pay for smart people gawking at analytics software to figure out what works best and to arrange my page for me. I believe in you!

So, assuming that we’re on the same page: it’s clear that with your current page editor there are problems we’re all struggling with. It seems to me that there’s a number of page appearance options you could offer for tiers:

  • Allow 4 or 5 tiers to be displayed at once
  • Let us select which tiers we’d like to display (you can let us know that “3 works best!”, but give us a choice instead of forcing another ugly “More…” button on us!)
  • Let us hide the Discord rewards thing
  • Let us highlight a particular tier, perhaps by letting us tag a tier with custom text like “Most popular!” or “Best value!” — I’d even be fine with a restricted list of phrases that test well!

Beyond that, I’d really like to be able to feature posts or tags to ensure a new patron sees an exciting array of public and locked posts.

Highlight public posts

Use your new “Recent posts” design as posted by @ursula, but consider a tab control that toggles between “Recent posts” and “Public posts” (or add a short block before the actual “recent posts” block?) that highlights public posts. Before this change came out, knowing that there was going to be a change, I actually expected the new page design would be more revolutionary and less iterative! It seems obvious to me that making your Patreon page a great place for non-paying fans to check up on new content is a perfect way to get more of your audience right on the edge of that funnel, and an easily accessible “free posts” section would make the page much more likely to actually achieve that.


And that’s all I have for now. Hopefully some of these ideas can at least be mocked up or played with. But, of course, I’d also be open to a more comprehensive design overhaul! This one just feels like a proof of concept rammed through way too fast, and I just can’t imagine that your (seemingly quite talented!) designers were entirely OK with it. I’ll go back to mulling over whether I should rework my page all over again, given that new changes seem due soon anyway… grumble grumble.

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This is an incredibly valuable critique, with well presented thoughts and ideas that were from a place of wanting to collaborate and breathe some fresh takes into the process. I love the suggestions for cleaning up the way tiers look, same for the about section.

And it sounds like many of these fine tuning aspects are happening, and were still going to happen…which is why I still scratch my head at why this whole thing came out as quickly as it did. Like publishing a first draft, just giving it a few more rounds would have made this a much more positive change.

I hope the team really digs into what you’ve said here and considers it, because I think it meshes very well with some of the things they’re looking to do! Thank you again for taking the time to share this critique!

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This is awesome! Most of my traffic is from non-Patrons, so increasing their viewing pleasure can only have a positive impact on conversion rates!

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Hey everyone, thanks again for your continuous feedback. We’ve been reading your feedback and are working hard to continue shaping this page based on your thoughts, along with feedback from patrons, perspective patrons, and test results. We are going to be sharing some interesting insights about recent tests with you all soon, as well as the design direction we’ll be pursuing.

Before then, we wanted to provide a quick update and let you know that we have a new experience currently being tested to help us answer the following question: how can we best convey the value of becoming your patron? We know fans find exclusive content enticing, so we’re providing a summary based on the locked , patron-only posts you have , right above those locked posts. There are two variants to this test: one only shows the media type of your locked posts, the other shows the actual number of locked posts. Below you can see what the two versions look like. Some of your page visitors will see version 1, some will see version 2, and some will see no change at all.

Version 1

Version 2

As always, we welcome your feedback, and look forward to sharing more about the landing page initiative and direction with you all soon.

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This is very interesting! There is definitely a lot of power in showing patrons just how much they unlock by pledging! However, as a creator who uses Patreon for a very specific type of content, audio posts, I almost feel like such prime real estate would be wasted by talking about other post types. Even if there are locked polls, images, etc. they aren’t part of the primary motivation for my non-patrons when deciding to pledge.

If I was able to emphasize that becoming a patron unlocks HUNDREDS of audio posts, nothing else sells people on my Patreon like that. It is the engine that makes my whole project run. I know that something fine tuned and customizable like that probably won’t be a part of the first iteration of this, but it would be wonderful if the product gave me some extra muscle to flex in that regard.

I like how clean the version without the numbers looks. I feel like having so many numbers laid out on the landing page like that might lead to more skimming rather than actual comprehension, whereas the “at a glance” look serves as more of an idea of what people will unlock.

OR!

What if you could hover over the icons for the various content types and then a little box pops up telling you how many posts of that type you can unlock? That would be nice!

Anywho, I like the direction and am excited to hear more about this and the other things in store with these updates and tests.

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