I won’t begrudge anyone for being upset about this law being passed.
But, in all honesty it’s getting blown way out of proportion and becoming the victim of sensationalism.
This law hasn’t even passed yet. It looks like it might.
However, if anyone thinks that if it does indeed pass (which I highly doubt), and there won’t be a massive public push back, is mistaken. This is free use rights at stake, and regardless of how much pull anyone thinks corporations have in political policy, there will be a major and aggressive push back if it ever comes to pass.
I don’t think that such draconian measures will ever pass, as long there is still some common sense left. This won’t ever pass. At least not anywhere that anyone still respects or maintains freedom.
Let’s not let pre-conceived ideas of the future determine our emotional state right now.
As for one guy being a douche over copyright, I’d be disputing it hard and showing proof with time-stamped files and such. If need-be, I’d even go to court and spend the money to do-so. If some one is making money off of my creations then I have even more incentive to pursue the matter. This is more a personal/individual problem than one that is common. If the original artist is motivated to maintain their copyright, then you have to do more than complain about it on the internet.
I do, and such a “prediction” is about as rational as reading tea leaves. You don’t know what the government will do. You don’t even know who will be in government by the time this is put to them. You also seem to be based in fantasy rather than an understanding of how the government actually functions. Decisions are not made in a void or without outside input, much as you would like to think so.
For us Parody makers, it’s a scary prospect. It does sadden me to see all these comments here with the tones ranging between “it doesn’t touch me, it doesn’t harm me” and “you should’ve never been here in the first place if this affects you”. Not everything is black and white, people.
I will ask the question then - what is making you fearful?
Just the prospect of this passing?
The implications of this passing?
Again I will point out - is this truly what we all expect to happen? Or is this media sensationalism and hype preying on your fears? What many fail to realize is that our entire culture and society is designed to get you to react.
Let’s stop and think really hard about this for a minute.
What makes it so certain this will pass?
If it does, what does that entail for copyright protection and fair use?
It means, that if this draconian law passes, creatives will simply have to do their homework, and due diligence when it comes to using copyright protected content. It means you’ll have to ask permission.
What makes me fear? What makes me fear is the license holders of the franchises I’m parodying to come after my campaign, and Patreon to suspend my entire earnings right then and there without any appeal or negotiations.
I don’t think that’s either outside realms of possibility, or a thought that only has sparked in my head upon hearing the news on this.
I would appreciate if people stopped playing coy about this too. If it doesn’t feel scary to you, it probably won’t affect you. Whatever, you move on. Don’t take a legitimate worry away from people- this platform is for me and them to figure out the best course of action. You’re seriously muddying the waters right now.
I question if anyone has actually been around the last few years…
They’ll never vote for Brexit…
They’ll never vote for Trump…
They’ll never let Article 13 pass…
There’s a very good reason for people to be concerned and this is threatening a lot of creators livlihoods. Suggesting they shouldn’t be worried is simply wrong.
Just to add, my creations are stories which don’t contain copyrighted material. I have little reason to fear these laws from a Patreon standpoint other than it further cracking down on the internet. The reason I feel so strongly about this (apart from enjoying memes!) is that a proposed UK law in November 2016 caused me to go into a deep depression where I shut off my Patreon and everything else because it seemed like I would no longer be able to write my content. It was nly saved thanks to a snap election being called forcing them to pass the bll quickly and accepting an amendment that saved what I do.
I know what it’s like to have an axe like that hanging over you and it’s a nasty, feeling. People have a right to be worried about laws that are passing that affect their jobs and, I repeat an earlier post, sneering at those who suddenly see the possibility that their Patreon pages will have to close helps no one.
I feel bad for anyone more direcly affected by this than me because I know how it can feel. I’m also saddened how readily people here are happy to go against other creators rather than supporting them.
This is more nonsense. You’re comparing two disasters that were voted for by a portion of the public, people like yourself, with laws that depend strictly on lawmakers advised by professional entities and trade unions. People have the right to worry over facts, not this kind of vague meaningless language or self-inflicted misinformation.
On the other hand, some people just love feeling persecuted by Big Government. If that is the case, fill your boots.
You want support from other creators? Behave like a professional creator, do some factual research, do what you need to adapt and keep your business going despite what’s going on in the world, instead of bleating about your right to be worried.
Nobody can stop a creator serious about what they do. Nobody. No law has stopped Ai Wei Wei, or Orhan Pamuk, or Salman Rushdie, etc and they were/are up against circumstances rather more dire than Article 13. Saying nothing of less-known creators who keep at it in war zones no matter what. So don’t sit there and mutter darkly and expect sympathy and attention because something may or may not make things slightly more difficult for you IN A FEW YEARS’ TIME, and even then only if you’ve gotten cushy using source material you don’t actually own.
We’re talking about continuing our livelihoods and you’re belittling it as “first-world problems”. Being able to live in a house and being able to afford food is just a “world problem”. You don’t have to rank them up to sound all smug.
Listen. I live in the Middle East. Actually, you know what? I live in the same country as Orhan Pamuk. The main cause to why “nothing stopped him” was because he had access to sources that enabled him to escape the country. We’re Patreon creators. When things end, things end for us. I make a grand a month. We don’t have that kind of sources. At some point you have to put more realism into your arguments instead of blind idealism and hypotheticals.
I know what direct persecution by the “Big Govt” feels like and I would appreciate if you, with your obviously absent views in the subject matter, didn’t belittle other people’s real-life concerns.
People voted for Trump, people voted for Brexit. These are the kind of votes that we SHOULD HAVE won, as we all had say in those outcomes. With Article 13 or Net-Neutrality abolishment, we didn’t even have that say. We don’t even have that edge for us anymore, it’s all the salarymen and fatcats that say the definitive word on it. It is entirely rightful to be scared about this because we even have less control regarding what’s going on.
I’ve had it difficult ever since I got out of high school, my skillset has always been at odds with what the country expects from me. I don’t want to waste my life away doing something that doesn’t align with my assumed profession and be paid 30% of what I am getting paid right now. This place, and being able to be paid ONLINE by the WORLD’S audience (not just by my own country’s limited collective perception) allows me to create more substantial things for my own niche than I could ever do if internet didn’t exist. Don’t fool yourself: I’d love to be able to cross the border but currently, I can’t. That means I can’t do my job that I want to do: Period. Or it would have been if Patreon didn’t exist. I sure as hell will use it and I sure as hell will be goddamn scared if the big-ass governments of the world try to barricade it as they’ve always done in my whole goddamn life.
No matter what we do, no matter whose intellectual property we’re parodying - people pledge to us because we give them a service they’re happy to obtain. Without us, they wouldn’t get it, and that’s that. You don’t get no sympathy from me from using such shallow words to discredit so many talented creators that fill in the hollow points of the audience’s zeitgeist.
Christ. Talk about minimizing the truth to get on some neutralist high-horse. Sometimes people are RIGHT to cause hysteria, you know. Jesus.
More of the same fact-free nonsense.
Turkey is not the Middle-East. I’M legitimately from the Middle-East, and you have nothing on my experiences or the limitations I had to overcome, but I’m not going to compare notes. And I’m still almost the only one who contributed realism and anything like professionally-reviewed information to this thread. The thread could have been used to work out what article 13 means exactly: instead it is a “woe be us" fest and people would rather freak out and hold on to their assumptions than see sense. If you can afford to waste that kind of energy and time, go for it. The only reason I bother is that this kind of shrill insistance on spreading the paranoia around, and make sure others are freaking out with you, is selfish, childish and unprofessional, and there has a to be a balancing voice. Let people look for reliable sources of information, not half-baked opinions. And if what someone is doing is genuinely a breach of intellectual property, which was never legal in the first place, they are not entitled to making a living from it, no matter how loudly they complain. That’s the end of the matter, as far as I’m concerned.
Turkey has become a part of Middle east within the last decade - when we used to be a contender for getting into the European Union for so long. This is why it gets so scary, this is why Orhan Pamuk and a lot of other professional people started getting prosecuted because the environment simply became more and more antagonistic to their line of work.
You’re definitely one to be on a high-note when it comes to chime self-importance, but that indicates nothing but an ironic sort of self-elevating when you just disregard everyone else’s complaints to make yours sound better.
A lot of people say the things you say, until actual devastation happens, and we’re left with all that wasted time we could use to formulate a better plan for our livelihoods. If you don’t wanna be a part of it, at least don’t stand in the middle of the road. Best case scenario, the hysteria IS unwarranted. In the end, that affects you none. But I applaud you for going so low to indicate that having non-conformist inclinations have anything to do with how professional one is in their line of work. We don’t put that in our work, it’s something we express in platforms like these and in our spare time. That’s something we have freedom to express-- oh wait, not always. Perhaps I should mention Orhan Pamuk once more to really home in on the fact that people like YOU hinder people like HIM to SPEAK his mind the way his rights as a human being should allow him to, using the same kind of strand of logic you’re applying right now.
Just 4 days ago, a bunch of Turkish journalists had their Patreon campaigns shut down. For no reason but because my government asked Patreon in the backstage. This happens. This will continue to happen even if you continue singing tralalas in your head and shield your ears. Here’s the source: https://www.turkishminute.com/2018/09/28/patreon-closes-account-of-exiled-journalist-over-threat-by-turkish-govt/ But yeah, I guess I’m talking out of my ass in a true fact-free nature.
We don’t have reliable sources because we weren’t given any. Like SOPA and any other approach to limit our internet content in favor of corporations and censorship-leaning governments - they RELY on the public not being properly educated about their legislatures in order to pass it with no objections to them. That’s on them. They are the reason why the hysteria is there, not us. They’re the ones that always express nothing but reluctance when asked “why is this needed”.
Fair use is legal. Even I know that, so you can’t use your place of origin as an excuse to misinformation. Stop waving that argument around, it’s embarrassing.
I’ve never really understood the need to belittle other’s concerns without really answering any of the concerns made. Nor do I understand the feeling that someone is the barometer for whether something is worth worrying about, people don’t need to ask permission to feel anxious about something.
I’ve been trying to keep quiet because I know nothing good comes from arguing but you (Joumama) say that this thread could be used to find out what Article 13 really means and yet towards the start of the thread you seem pretty certain. In fact it seems you are so certain about what it means that you see no reason to be worried by it, that’s fine and I hope you are right on that front, but if you don’t know what it really means isn’t there a good reason to not completely dismiss anyone who suggests it might not all be milk and honey?
If you don’t think it affects you that’s great for you but maybe you can see from other’s perspectives and see that some will be affected a lot more and may lose their Patreon pages over such a law? And that’s even if they follow it correctly, there are no filters that can decide what is fair use and what isn’t.
I don’t think anyone here is muttering darkly in the hope of attention… We are running little businesses here not kids looking for mommy’s help. You aren’t the gatekeeper for anxiety or anything else, people are allowed to have different emotions and they are allowed to express them to each other.
Dismissing concerned patrons so patronisingly does little to help your arguments.
Fair use is indeed legal. If you think anyone said otherwise (whether me or article 13), you’ve demonstrated to yourself that you’re simply not paying attention to what is really there.
Transformative work, fair use parody work - for not SELLING purposes but DONATION INCENTIVE purposes are (although frowned upon and can be mitigated by the license holders, by sheer means of advice and/or pressure) - of otherwise established intellectual properties, are all legal. There are also many ethical reasonings to why it’s beneficial to everybody but I will spare you from that discourse because you won’t be listening to it anyway, since you’re on such a desperate need to feel you’re the one in the right and mommy people around.
It’s even more legal in Europe and in the US in means of being able to set up tables in various cons to actually DIRECTLY SELL printed copies of your fan-made artwork. I am hindered from doing that, sadly, due to my happenstance and difficulty in getting long-term visas, so I am just doing the internet thing.
The thing I find strange about this attitude is that you are an artist.
You can create stuff out of thin air.
Yet, you want to use well-known and already owned IP’s for your art.
That’s a choice.
If you’re choosing to use other IPs but your own to collect an income, I’m not sure what else to tell you.
This isn’t about oppression.
If you find that you can’t make art based other artists properties, then I’d suggest doing your own thing.
What I find strange in THIS kind of rebuttals is that – it always comes off contemptuous. I’m sorry if that’s not your intent but that’s what it comes off as.
If you think us choosing to do fanarts based on well-known IP’s to make our jobs easier or anything – well it’s still creative work. I still write, I still draw the entire thing. We do this to complete the hollow points in a franchise, stuff that they would never do for all the conglomerate concerns. It’s no easier than doing your own thing. I’d know, I do those too. It’s a local franchise for where I live so I separate it from my Patreon campaign, which is supposed to be more international.
It’s because I find little difference between using your own characters vs using well known characters in popular eye. We do it, we get PLEDGES for it, we don’t actually directly sell and become COMPETITORS to the brands themselves. If anything I’d say we further the franchise itself but I don’t wanna come off as if I believe I’m a saint for drawing my own scribbles over official work or anything, but I’ll always say we all can work in harmony.
There is this added benefit of immediate resonance coming with that you’re using recognizable characters, but you can only catch that edge if you’re doing something different that people have been already looking for and did not exist previously. That still takes work from my end.
Other than that, it’s art. You don’t need direct reasons and results for your art, it’s what comes from your heart. There shouldn’t be a problem to solve to begin with.
I mentioned it further up the thread but I’ll do so again… The podcast “OSW Review” (Patreon users themselves) uses a lot of copyrighted footage when they review old wrestling. The big thing here is that (and this is to the best of my knowledge so I aologise if I get it wrong, they mentioned it in one of their episodes) they receive permission from the companies whose material they use so they don’t get copyright claimed on Youtube (despite reviews falling under fair use Youtube would still strike it down, a portent of things to come perhaps…) They post their stuff online and everything is fine.
The problem with these laws and the stiffening of the copyright stuff is that this would make Youtube liable for anything posted on there by anyone. They would have to turn their copyright content filter up to 11 and A LOT would get hit in the crossfire including things like the show above. A filter can’t tell what has permissions to be posted and what doens’t, it can’t tell the difference between a piece of song uploaded in a way that is fine and one that isn’t. The problem becomes that without the websites liable they can’t take chances and will err on the side of extreme caution.
The podcast I suggested is one example but there are many more who use the same format. There are many other creators that will fall foul of the filter for other reasons. Music/film/TV reviews? All in trouble. Parody videos, montage makers, anything remotely meme related? In touble. Educational videos explaining things about media? In trouble. There is a lot of very high quality content that would be jeopardised by this
Unless you are saying that anyone who is essentially adding value to an already existing product isn’t a creator then I don’t see how else to explain why this article is concerning to people. I don’t understand the attitude of “If it doesn’t affec me I don’t care.” or at least using that to bludgeon those that do care.
I don’t make videos or pictures, I don’t use copyrighted material and I don’t think this law will affect my creativity. But I can recognise that it will affect others a lot.
Sorry Cuisine but I disagree with you. Yes you still write and draw but you are using somebody else work which is protected by copyright law.
I play guitar. Yes, I can rearrange a song and make my own arrangement and yes I still do the work but it isn’t my song!
If I make money out of it (in any type of form) it isn’t fair for the artist and the publishers have the right to take the video down or come after you legally …
